Nashua
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Queen of Arcose
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Oozaru (x5P) Ultra Super Saiyan (x17/x13T) Mastered Super Saiyan (x16P)
Tag: @nashua
Posts: 1,193 
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Post by Nashua on Aug 9, 2018 16:24:46 GMT -6
Hi, everyone! I know this exact idea has been brought up and shut down by staff previously, but I think it's important to take another look at it in light of the recent DE and the changes to staff.
So, the death mechanics. In theory, they create a system where player choice is made all that more important in DEs, and that when your character dies or kills someone, that death is made more impactful. Unfortunately, as I feel, as has been demonstrated in the way the forum has been functioning so far, this system only works in theory.
I'm fully aware that, as more characters die, the Other World becomes more crowded and will have more people to write and interact with. But interact and do what with, exactly? This is a Dragon Ball forum, after all, and when your character is confined to the afterlife, their only two options are really slice of life threads, or sparring match threads, and they have no way to impact the forum in any meaningful way, whatsoever. And as a consequence of DEs, the most active people will join them, and ultimately end up dying, so this system creates less of a thrilling narrative and more of a question of "Which active people are going to have to stop contributing to the plot?"
The site definitely isn't inactive, but instead it seems to have fallen into a state of stagnancy. I don't mean to sound impatient, but there really have not been any major events outside of the singular Satan City DE, which saw active members such as Nashi, Garon, Corrin and Yogu all forced to remove their characters from the shared world and instead sit twiddling their thumbs as they wait for the Dragon Balls to made. And when the site is generally struggling to find characters to make big plot pushes, forcing anyone who tries and fails to do so to go sit in the time out corner and wait multiple months for the Dragon Balls to be made, then longer still for them to be used and only maybe be used to revive their characters is not a fun or productive system in any way.
Basically, I think it would only be beneficial to the site and all of its players to allow people a way to return from death without relying solely on mechanics that take far too long to come into effect and are completely out of their control. So far, the concerns I've seen against easing the death mechanics are generally as follows:
- Making death more lax removes the significance of character death and makes DEs less purposeful or harsh.
- Over time, the Other World will have more people in it and become more enjoyable as more people die.
- You can always come back to life as a Ghost.
- You can always just use an alt character in the living world.
These were the arguments presented by both staff and members in support of the harsh death mechanics in place. While I can see where they are coming from, I feel making these points is, as stated before, more of an "in theory" faith, while in practice, it doesn't really work as well as one would hope. I feel each of these points can be effectively countered using examples we've seen occur in the site so far.
- Death does not have to be permanent to be significant. In fact, the permanence of death seems to have created a much more hostile reception to DEs starting than it did before. For example, in Banzo's recent DE, he was immediately met with a significant amount of backlash from various people, and many threatened to simply boycott his thread and just "go build another base". This is both disappointing from a narrative and OOC perspective, and instead shows that people are so reluctant to risk their characters dying that they will simply sit back and ignore the plot if they want to. That's not healthy for the future of the site or its plot, and discourages bold or risky moves that could potentially be exciting and benefit the shared plot we have here.
- Sure, you'll have more people in the Other World as the next few DEs roll around. That is, if you haven't already gotten extremely bored of your character being stuck in the same place for months on end with no release in sight, and archived or abandoned them so you can actually contribute to the site. More characters ending up stuck in the same pit of stagnancy just means, well, more characters ending up stuck in the same pit of stagnancy. You can have some threads with other dead guys and maybe do some sparring, but you're essentially going to be doing nothing until someone wishes you back to life.
- People really don't want to come back as a Ghost. Nobody has elected to come back as a Ghost. Ghosts have the worst mechanical multipliers of any race in the forum on top of a permanent terrible XP to PL conversion rate, and people pick their races because they wanted to enjoy that race's traits. Having to choose between being stuck doing nothing for potentially forever or sacrificing the race you were really looking forward to play and instead play as the objectively worst race in the forum is not much of an interesting or enjoyable choice to force players to make.
- We create our characters in mind because we're excited to see where their story will go. And we're essentially punished for taking a risk by entering them into a DE when they're killed and that character's story just comes to a complete halt as you wait for someone to revive you, if ever. Having to give up a character you've spent countless hours thinking about, rooting for and working hard on only to need to create an entirely new one just to be able to contribute to the site plot is an unfair compromise to the characters we love.
If you have any other counter points, please feel free to reply with them below and I will do my best to explain my perspective against them.
Now, the big question that remains is, "How can death still remain meaningful without being unfair to the players and harmful to the site's health?" That question isn't as difficult to answer as one might think, and I feel a few parameters being set would end up allowing a big impact with each death while still giving players a chance to not feel trapped.
- A minimum amount of time forced to spend in the Other World, such as a month or two, or even as long as three months. While it is still a lengthy stay, there is a clear end in sight and players can continue to plan ahead for future character plots without having to worry that they will never get to see them come to fruition, as well as erase them from the plot map long enough that whoever killed them will still be satisfied with their contribution.
- A high revival cost, comparable to a limited edition item or greater. Whether it be pure XP or a separate currency such as Shoki, a high revival cost would both force players to make the choice between using their XP to increase their power level with the bonus conversion rate, or working towards getting themselves revived, which seems like a fair tradeoff to me.
- A reduction of XP to PL conversion for a time after being revived. This can be flavored as "revival fatigue" or something like it, and would encourage players to stick around in the afterlife for a bit longer to take more advantage of their conversion rate, and make it so they won't immediately jump up in power a bunch after starting many new threads, excited to be back among the living. This could last anywhere from several weeks to a month or two.
Either all of these changes or a mix/combination would create a still punishing death system, without making it feel nearly impossible to escape from. Of course, it's up to the staff to come up with their own system as well, and these are simply suggestions, they are definitely not the only options here.
While working on this, I discussed with Ramen and she shared her idea for potential methods of return as well, involving several different "tracks" one can use to return based on various circumstances, which I will post here:
Track 1: Slipping Through the Cracks
The first track for resurrection is available to characters who are not at Malus and have not forcibly revived without the Dragon Balls before, thus enabling them to act in secrecy without the attention of concerned Shinjin and Ogres. This track works as followed:
- The character must remain in the Other World for a minimum of 30 days.
- Purchase the Black Market Plane Ticket, a new item enabling non-ogre/shinjin players to travel between heaven and hell at a cost of 15,000 XP. This will be used for the first leg of the journey.
- Purchase the Re-Materializer, allowing the character to manifest a new body as they slip through the cracks of Other World. This will cost around 30,000 XP and allow the character a brand new body to work with in the new world. This avoids the need to resurrect as a ghost, but applies Revival Fatigue, reducing XP>PL conversion to .75. This overrides any other modifiers, including the Arcosian bonus.
- This XP>PL conversion lasts until the player has gotten used to their new body. This can be through converting (before the modifier) somewhere around 20,000-30,000 XP, or consuming a costly new item in Revival Medication.
- This counts as an evil act and King Yemma will judge as such if the character dies again.
TOTAL COST: 45,000 pure XP, with an additional 20,000-30,00 XP for medication or 20,000-30,000 XP converted to PL under additional malus.
Track 2: Brute Force
If the character is at Malus or has revived without Dragon Balls before, they will be required to use this track as they can not effectively evade watch given more attention will be placed upon them. This track works as follows.
- The character must remain in Other World for a minimum of 30 days.
- Purchase the Black Market Plane Ticket for 15,000 XP.
- The character must purchase the Re-Materializer using their power level instead of XP. The price of this is increased to 45,000 PL. The exception to this is if the player is an XP main (more XP spent towards items/minions than PL) who has revived prior, in which case they can purchase this for 45,000 XP rather than PL. Upon using this, the same Revival Fatigue modifier is applied.
- The same XP>PL conversion rates for Revival Fatigue, and the eventual fix, remains the same.
- This also counts as an evil act.
TOTAL COST: 15,000 XP plus 45,000 PL (XP for XP mains) , with an additional 20,000-30,000 for medication or 20,000-30,000 XP converted to PL under Malus.
Track 3: Dragon Balls
If you’re revived with the Dragon Balls, it’s free. You get to enjoy the fruits of Afterlife training and return to the world stronger than before, not behind the curve. King Yemma will be chill about it, too.
Again, these are not the only viable methods, but merely suggestions to allow death mechanics to remain just as punishing/meaningful while still giving players the chance to escape.
In essence, the death mechanics as they are only really serve to hurt the site and its activity. While they create a compelling narrative and add weight to death in theory, they instead serve to promote avoiding the risk of death altogether and create an air of toxicity around DEs that was not present on Souls, thanks to its less strict mechanics on death. I do not mean to personally attack or insult anyone through my suggestions, and I know and understand the staff and the players are all doing their best to make this forum a fun and enjoyable experience, I simply feel that these changes would promote more active plotting instead of discouraging big risks. Feel free to agree or disagree, but I've been thinking about this for a while now, and wanted to get my thoughts out there.
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Post by Saizomaru on Aug 9, 2018 17:09:26 GMT -6
Think I'm gonna respond to this, because this is actually a topic of discussion that I am quite invested in.
Unfortunately a lot of stuff that has been implemented on this site is all based on "theory" because they've yet to be extensively tested by the community at large. As such we're effectively "beta testing" certain mechanics to see what works and what doesn't, or rather what does not go over well or translate well to the players.
DE's and deaths, of course, being one of them. Only a handful of people have been killed so far, but it seems that the general consensus is either:
1) Roleplay with the same people doing the same thing over and over again because there is a lack of people and/or because there is a lack of variety of scenery in otherworld,
2) Ditch said character because people think that the living world is more fun to play around in, and end up making a new character,
3) Archiving said dead character and just transfer their power to a new one.
Having said that, this creates a potential detriment to both enjoyability of players, as well as a detriment to the overarching plot of both characters and site. If everyone is either dead or decided to reroll new characters, then how does that benefit the story being told here? The only story being told here is either:
1) If the bad guys win, they'll always win, because everyone strong enough to stand against them either doesn't exist or is dead,
2) The story essentially gets reset back to square one because there's a whole bunch of lowbies running around trying to develop something new,
3) A whole bunch of strong guys randomly popped up,
4) A whole bunch of ghosts have just invaded the living world.
Speaking of ghosts, let's move on to each of the counterpoints listed in Nashua's posts.
True, but DEs already have the secondary purpose of literally changing the landscape of the site's world, not to mention perpetuates the ongoing plot/story being told. If character death is meant to be purposeful and harsh, then give them something to strive towards so it's not a case of, "you're dead, gg."
This is assuming one of two things:
1) DE's happen often enough that new people are regularly coming in so people aren't bored of roleplaying with the same 6-7 people for months on end, and thus end up ditching that character for a new one,
2) People don't end up leaving Otherworld because they decide to ditch their characters, decide to reroll ghosts (why would they?) or end up getting revived.
Why the hell would anyone want to do this? Being a Ghost is probably the worse race on the site, for all the reasons Nashua mentioned. Not only that, but they'd end up being better off just archiving their current character and transferring to a different, better race. Or, they could just stick it out in the AL, get way more gains being dead than if they were a ghost, and just wait to be revived.
This is fine if:
1) They have an alt character,
2) if they want to make an alt character,
3) They don't want to play their current character.
Having said all of that, I'll move onto suggestions. Or "suggestion", because I only have one.
We want to make DEs meaningful and something akin to a sort of punishment. But a punishment implies that the person being punished has a way for them to redeem themselves. I suggest that, like Nashua posted prior, that we have a way for people to come back on their own.
I think it would be fair if a character has the opportunity to do so by spending EXP. This gives them one of two options:
1) Stay in the AL and farm EXP for better PL gains,
2) Decide to leave if they get incredibly bored and don't mind the loss of the extra gains.
However, to do that they must:
1) Have a minimum of 40k EXP that they must spend to be brought back to life. This can be done in the XP -> PL Conversion thread, or in a separate thread entirely. Alternatively they can buy an item from the shop, then use it, then notify a member of staff that it had been used so it can be removed from their inventory. From there, they are free to roleplay back in the living world.
2) They must spend a minimum 40 days in the Otherworld before they can leave. This means that there will nearly always be someone in Otherworld for other dead players to roleplay with, and puts a hard timer on their stay should they be able to reach the necessary EXP needed to leave before the 30 days are up.
3) Both of these values can increase. For every death after the first, the cost/duration of these limits go up by 10K/10 days respectively. For example, a character who has died a second time must spend 50k EXP as well as spend at least 50 days in Otherworld.
So how does this punish players who die? Simple: they lose out on potential gains since they have to spend so much on being revived. 40k EXP (minimum) is a huge chunk taken away from PL gains or items.
In conclusion, I think it would be healthier for the site as a whole if players were able to bring themselves back to life, but not as trivially as they could do prior on Souls. It will create a more active living world, and also help move the plot along.
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Maple
Administrator
PL: 80,000
Stargoon (x2P); Sparkling(x4P)
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Post by Maple on Aug 9, 2018 20:58:06 GMT -6
I have returned, with some perspective.
The largest reason death was made hard was that death on Souls was a revolving door. When you died, you could expect that no matter what, your character could return to life in a certain amount of time. Not only could they return to RL, they could do so with basically no changes to their characters. They weren't phased or altered by the process of death. They were just poofed back into existence and sent on their merry way. Death here is meant to be a serious penalty, a could-be-permanent one, and not a timeout. If you come back, you come back because someone wished you back with crazy magic stones, or you've come back a zombie or ghost, or in the case of Arcosians, a mechanical monstrosity. You're not going to be the same dude you were before death.
The reason why revolving doors are bad is because they make DEs totally inconsequential. In Souls, a lot of people were using the mechanics of the DE -- the ability to take over a city, for instance -- in the place of a solid story or any real characterization. People not wanting to join DEs because they're afraid to die is a good thing. DEs should be rare, scary events. They shouldn't be popping up like weeds, and they shouldn't be used to spotlight or get attention. DEs should be areas of heavy consequence, where big and sudden shifts to the story can be made. However, DEs aren't the only places where story can progress. Not every fight needs to become a DE, and character growth requires no DE at all.
Also, keep in mind that the major gameplay feature to escape death -- the Dragon Balls -- has yet to be implemented.
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Nashua
Administrator
Queen of Arcose
PL: 250,000
Oozaru (x5P) Ultra Super Saiyan (x17/x13T) Mastered Super Saiyan (x16P)
Tag: @nashua
Posts: 1,193
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Post by Nashua on Aug 10, 2018 1:24:32 GMT -6
Hi Maple, glad to see your perspective on things too, and I understand where you're coming from.
From the discussions that were had in the discord about this, I definitely understand how death on Souls was far too lenient, and I completely agree there that a "revolving doors" system is no way to make a compelling narrative with big consequences. However, there's absolutely a middle ground to find between death being with no consequence at all and being too much of a consequence. It makes sense that Turbo would have harsher mechanics in this regard, though I and many others simply feel that the severity of death has been flipped around to an opposite extreme that can be just as damaging.
The ideas listed above would give players a chance to get out of the pits of the Other World on their own volition, though would likely take just as long to work towards as it might take for someone to gather the Dragon Balls and wish someone back, and they come with extreme consequences as well: by no means are you returning with just a slap on the wrist with all of the penalties Ramen came up with. The main difference, I feel, is that it would give people who are dead something to work and strive for. They're still plenty trapped as a consequence of being killed, but the fact that they can get themselves out with enough hard work is the important part. The Dragon Balls are a different entity, in that they are entirely out of the dead character's control whether or not they will be used to revive them. It's much harder to stay invested in a character if you're not sure that they're never going to be revived, which will no doubt end up being the case for some people.
I think that properly balanced mechanics that would make death still a very difficult thing to come back from will still keep nearly the same amount of threat that DEs currently have while not necessarily being an abrupt "THE END" slapped onto an unlucky character's storyline. And while some people may enjoy the harsh death mechanics, from what I've seen and heard, the majority seem to agree that allowing players the chance to come back by their own will is more enjoyable to them, and I think community enjoyment should definitely be a factor in major mechanics like death. And as for those who prefer the current system, they can choose to stay dead and wait to be revived by the Dragon Balls.
I trust Sketch and the rest of the new staff to come up with a system that both honors the one you came up with and allows the rest of the community to work with something they'd be more comfortable with as well.
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Post by Nashi on Aug 10, 2018 6:06:40 GMT -6
I'm not so much of a fan of additional cheats being introduced. There are plenty of entirely suitable means available to a dead character, and if you aren't prepared to wait for the Dragon Balls, become a ghost or make a new character then you probably shouldn't have entered the DE. However, I also see merit in the idea of a difficult way to cheat the system and return to life, given steep costs and strong IC justification. OOC Stipulations: - The cost is steep, like with costs recommended already. 40k, perhaps higher.
- It may happen only once, regardless of cheat. Not even getting more expensive, it simply cannot happen again. We certainly don't want another Koramund.
Potential IC Justifications: If you don't justify it, you may as well teleport them to life without reason. It takes away from the point of rp.
- What I'm pretty sure Nashua's idea is: returning as a ghost but then possessing your own body.
- Furnace of Eight Divisions. Probably would be a good fit for those escaping from hell. Plenty of cool NPCs to meet in an escape solo. Might use the Bansho Fan somehow? Probs not, that's likely going to be a monthly item
- The character tricks a Shinjin into going on a One Day Pass, but hides and doesn't return after the day is up. Getting rid of their halo is the cause of their buff.
This is, of course, if something like this goes through. Though, even if this is implemented, there still wouldn't really be any reason to use it, since there is no real reason to not just wait for Dragon Balls or become a ghost. Ghosts are great!
Bloody life-ists...
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Post by Banshee on Aug 10, 2018 9:34:32 GMT -6
This is, of course, if something like this goes through. Though, even if this is implemented, there still wouldn't really be any reason to use it, since there is no real reason to not just wait for Dragon Balls or become a ghost. Ghosts are great!
Bloody life-ists... I think this is part of why implementing this would do very little if anything to damage the overall site narrative. It would be a mechanic that, for most people, would be entirely unnecessary and unused with the implementation of New Game +, the possibility of the Dragon Balls when those eventually come around, and a hopefully-thriving Afterlife yes i'll post soon. So, I kind of have two points. One is about revival and DEs and etcetera, and the second is about ghosts.On RevivalThe costs should be sufficiently high to discourage players from opting to go this route: rather than the revolving door people are afraid of, it should require a real commitment and potentially set the character back. In most of the hypothesized schemes, a character that actually wants to participate in site DEs (aka: the characters liable to be dead) would be massively cutting themselves down to return without the Dragon Balls, thus making the cost... not really worth it at all. At the same time, however, a potential escape that allows people who are really dedicated to getting their characters back to the living world at a severe cost would be a boon to the couple people who might be interested in undertaking such a path. You could even make it more punishing if you want to. It seems to me that it's something that wouldn't really affect the on-site experience for those who don't want to do it personally, yet would enhance the site experience for people who aren't happy with the manner death is set up right now. With the lack of escape mechanics and the possibility of a winning side just farming kills until the bitter end of a DE, it might also add opportunities for long-term rivalries or for a player to seek a more satisfying end to their character if for some reason the situation around their initial death didn't sit well with them -- and there could be many justifiable reasons for a player to feel that way. I can think of a couple things that have happened in the last DE alone that made me really leery about how people were treating the site, and I wasn't even in the thread.Another point I want to make is that I don't think you need to throw the lid on any kind of alternative revival route just to keep DE threads consequential. If revival can take place so quickly and for so little penalty that the character is unaffected, that's one thing -- but that's not what's being suggested, and you shouldn't need to permanently kill someone to feel like you're accomplishing something. If anything, that would point to an overall weakness in the story you're trying to tell with the thread itself. You also shouldn't have to feel like you're putting your opponent into purgatory and writing off their character to gain satisfaction from landing a kill. You could do any number of things with the actual mechanics around it. You could make the costs higher, you could make the XP>PL conversion nerf permanent, you could apply a permanent reduction in power to all of that character's transformations, you could reduce their PL by a large percentage based on a scale, etc. The sky's the limit for how bad an option you could make this, but at the end of the day, I think that having an option, any option, that allows a player to feel like they're regaining their character in its original form would be a boon to the handful of people who would ever be willing to go through with it at a steep cost, while -- again -- not harming the overall story in the slightest. In effect, it should function as a light at the end of the tunnel and something to give players a little bit more control over their character's ultimate fates. Not a particularly viable option, nor one to be taken lightly. On Ghosts
So, I like ghosts. Mechanically, they're quite poor compared to the other species, but they're fun to play. However, I would argue that the one thing that makes them fun to play is the unique stories you can do with them. The distinct sorts of characters you could make using the ghost template is what sets it apart and makes it worth tanking the weaker transformations, the XP>PL conversion nerf, etcetera. An alternative revival option would largely be for players who want to return to the living world with their character a little more intact, whether because they're unhappy with how they died or whatever other reason. I do want ghosts to be given a little bit of a buff (along with ogres) to make them a little more viable, but at the same time I feel like it would kind of cheapen ghosts if suddenly people were just returning to Earth as ghosts because it was their only way out of the Afterlife and acting, effectively, like completely ordinary people with the ghost aspect of their character downplayed. |
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Post by Lunatus on Aug 10, 2018 10:13:05 GMT -6
Okay, before I begin I would first like to apologize if I make any mistakes as I am posting this on a phone, now then let's begin.
Call me bias as my own character is one of the few dead but, I have to agree with many of the points that are pro- non DB revival. Especially Banshee's.
These are my take on the subject:
Ghost, for me is in that weird middle zone where I'm just neutral about it. Sure, it's not terrible because you can revive as many times as you want although I see the issues. Weaker modifiers, kinda bad traits (kamikaze is fun, but does take the life of the user in the process and requires 3KP which the KP requirement isn't as bad later on due to the huge amounts of temp trans). Also, revivals might be free, but the scale with time leading to your 6th death costing 15,000 XP. Then again, you have to die 6 times for this to happen. But if you use kamikaze a lot, well... ) This is especially bad if you choose to play as a ghost starting off, although these are the prices to pay in exchange for being able to revive an unlimited amount of tines.
Dragon Balls, again are a bit finicky. They require to be made, have an active kami (yeah I know that I'm kami and could technically make it now but delaying it for personal plots), and hunted for with a cooldown period time. This can lead to months, if not years dead. Even if you try go DB hunting yourself, there are numerous risks that can just lead to you spending a ton of XP on an improbable possibility which is a risk you are willing to take. Overall, this just can be a slippery slope.
Death in general: Before joining WODS all sites with combat I was on had perma death. If you die, SOL, make a new character. Some sites are nice enough to allow you to transfer items but other times, you have to start from scratch. Fortunately WOD isn't perma death, just very near. One of the things that distinguish DBZ from other series is that death can be worked around. That's why I see DBZ sites as effective. Being able to revive is nice, although I do still like the idea of revival by a way other than the dragon balls.
Here are my suggestions:
> Keep the black market ticket and rematerializer. Those are expensive and effective. You can keep the black market ticket as a permanent thing, but instead make the rematerializer a one time use but do not deduct it after a use. This count towards their cumalative XP total forever and ever, but it is still a one use thing. That way it makes it harder to achieve another one especially when you're in malus. Of course staff will notice the grinding if one wants to leave and can shut one down.
> Rather than having afterlife fatigue wich lowers XP to PL rate, why not change it up? Think of this as a slow start Regigigas ability. Their soul have a lot of power/they've been dead for so long that their body rejects them for that reason. As such they can only fight for 70% of their power. This does not go away with time, but rather requires you to pay a certain percentage of the PL you have when leaving the AL. You can increase how much power you can fight with by purchasing 3 different tiers of soul healing with XP, which increase how much power you can access by 10% intervals. This requires even more XP investment, which limits the AL training boost. Of course this can all be avoided if you just revive with the dragon balls.
Bio-Android and Majin absorption means something to you other than just get stronger enemies. When die by getting absorbed, or get absorbed afterwards, you will lose the same amount of PL when you revive (not in the AL, when you revive), capping out at 10K PL. You can avoid this once again through dragon ball use.
All these ideas make the idea of reviving by this way a pain and make waiting for the DBs preferable to using this method. This will not make death a revolving door due to the harsh penalties it may bring. But yeah, you're probably be asking why impliment this if its so harsh? Because, its another option. It allows you to revive if you don't want to wait and you're willing to put in the investment which can possibly be a quicker way if the hunt is taking awhile or if they're inactive through use. Plus, this can offer lots of fun plots in the process as a person tries to regain their strength.
Before one asks, yes I know that this only accounts for PL mains or Hybrids, without taking in consideration for XP mains. However, these are all just ideas for starters and potential suggestions. That's about it. This can all be modified and improved on.
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Post by Majin Mumbo on Aug 10, 2018 14:38:05 GMT -6
I hate the idea of giving out new ways to revive. We nailed shut those pesky holes in the dimensional doors in the jump between sites for a good reason, and so far I think it's doing its job well. Near the start of the site I was also considering ideas for revive options, but nothing works without reverting to the same old style of making death a slap on the wrist.
Even if those revival options are even more punishing than becoming a Ghost is, which to be fair isn't a bad choice in itself, I think we'd start to veer from making death too simple into making death convoluted. It'll get to the point where any new options we give which are way too expensive because "Well we wanna keep death punishing a teensy bit" are entirely pointless because now you're sinking in every inkling of XP you gain in the AL into this new-fangled item we've cooked up or some process that spans dozens of solo threads or requires RP with NPC's who might not always have staffers ready to play them just so you can return to life. There's no growth involved that way; personal or power. It just becomes an honest-to-god time sink rather than somewhere to lay your weary boots down after being defeated.
And like I've said before; there's always New-Game-Plus!
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Maple
Administrator
PL: 80,000
Stargoon (x2P); Sparkling(x4P)
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Post by Maple on Aug 10, 2018 19:28:05 GMT -6
Ghosts are already the perfect option for people that want to get-out-of-jail. But ghosts carry a penalty. People don't want to live with ghost's modifiers and mechanics, but they're there for precisely that reason -- because you get the huge boon of skipping death.
You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Even if making death less heavy were widely popular, and I'm not convinced it is, I would be against it because people might think they know what they want, until they experience the macro over the entire gamespace and everything else that comes as an effect of this change -- increased DEs, increased frivolous participation, etc.
It'll be Sketch's call, but I think that so far death is working as intended.
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Nashua
Administrator
Queen of Arcose
PL: 250,000
Oozaru (x5P) Ultra Super Saiyan (x17/x13T) Mastered Super Saiyan (x16P)
Tag: @nashua
Posts: 1,193
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Post by Nashua on Aug 10, 2018 22:37:31 GMT -6
I feel it would be inappropriate to assume "if we do A, B will happen eventually!", as staff have proven themselves to hardly be fickle when it comes to major mechanics such as death. I think the options many players have offered up or something similar to them would be a nice one and done solution, Mumbo; no snowball effect would follow a rigid in place rule after it's been enacted, so I don't think we'd need to worry about things like major solo quests or NPC guides happening unless you all decide that's the route you want to take things, which I'm sure we can all agree would be unnecessary.
And while I respect your opinion, Maple, I'm not sure it's so fair to assume that everyone who'd like a change to the rule is just inherently wrong because, again, you're assuming a snowball effect of disaster will follow. Ghosts carry a lasting penalty, and so would many of the other suggested methods brought up by me and other people, the only difference is that for what we suggested, you would be able to keep the race of the character that you wanted to play when you made them instead of being forced into a different one, and you need to work for it.
Death on Souls was far too lax, we can all agree, but it's unfair to assume that a middle ground is impossible without genuinely considering the other options at the disposal of the staff.
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Post by Yanwang on Aug 11, 2018 11:30:30 GMT -6
K so I'd like to throw my hat real quick. I think I have a lot experience with this since I had 2 char dies on Wod (2 Times with my Main and 1 time with one of my alts). The Old System didn't promote conquesnece. That is because any char could come back. It promotes harder choices when people can and will die and simply won't just return. Dragonballs only work what once every 4 months (Namekian) Earth (1). Secondly, since they buffed the char system (Ain't it like 80 percent exp correct me if i'm wrong). I can tell you that it really made me more reckless since death didn't matter. If you wanna play a char who charges into unwinnable battles now you gotta really love that idea. Since well if you die you can be done. So I like the new system.
However, I can see why people may not like it since people wanna revive. And it may be a bad cause if a ton of good or bad guys dies then one can have a monopoly. So I'd want to nail three ideas I had. I would not take any too serious just thoughts I had.
1. Shinjin Branch Healing Techquine that could be like a 1 for 1 exchange. Like Old Kai did with Goku. Fits with the Lore, would promote that brand and has a consequence to the other person. Still makes death hard since a player had to die.
2. Death De's. This one would be more of a joke and I don't think this would really be viable. Basically X Player can pay a certian amount of exp to make a portal. Then said player must make a De to escape. And Any One in Heaven or Hell can Stop them. They can't get any allies. If they die in the de their char perm dies like suggested with Vegeta when he came back with Halo. So be the all last ditch effort one.
3. Bring another Revive path. The only two races that one can become after death are A. Android and B. Ghost. That does not appeal to everyone. Perhaps if there was a third race somewhere it'd help. The only Issue, I have no idea what race that could be.
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Post by Allium on Sept 3, 2018 12:46:59 GMT -6
I think there is a belief that ghosts don't get AL bonus or de bonuses, probably because in the original design of ghosts in WODS they were excluded from it. Here it is not written to be so, so even though they get a conversion nerf if you thread majority in the AL and DEs then the bonus modifiers should nullify out the gain reductions. The transformations are a bit bad but in end game you are back up to a decent competitiveness.
If you play ghost like a normal character you will be disappointed. If you play them with the mindset of trying to do as much damage as you can before you run out of KP to help out your allies they can be really fun i'm sure. A ghost with a full fledged offensive sig invested in pure power and its cousins can do a 200% for 3 of its 7kp and then suicide for another 3kp to do 150% more.
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