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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2019 16:35:44 GMT -6
Unless that was posted before Socks was punished, my argument remains unchanged.
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Post by Prince Kabe on Oct 20, 2019 16:51:14 GMT -6
Unless that was posted before Socks was punished, my argument remains unchanged. Thaw is a repeat offender who on many occasions has displayed similar behavior, which he has been verbally warned for. Yet, he still made this joke with someone he was not close to about a subject that is less a joke and more an insulting accusation. Thaw should have known better, and Thaw knows that. That's why he conceded and apologized to Ed and Dingo, and accepted his punishment. |
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Brok Gorlick
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Post by Brok Gorlick on Oct 20, 2019 17:48:05 GMT -6
Thaw is a repeat offender who on many occasions has displayed similar behavior, which he has been verbally warned for. Yet, he still made this joke with someone he was not close to about a subject that is less a joke and more an insulting accusation.Thaw should have known better, and Thaw knows that. That's why he conceded and apologized to Ed and Dingo, and accepted his punishment. You see, this is my main issue with the current drama. Part of the reason Gabu was banned was at least nominally related to remarks made before the major crackdown on this sort of thing occurred/the system of discord strikes was put in place. The elaboration on the rules of what is good/bad to joke about was also posted a day after his remarks. As far as I see it, the fact of whether or not this was good or bad or PC or whatever doesn't really matter as Yakone has already accepted his punishment. The main issue is the precedent being set here that rules can be enforced retroactively as far as discord behavior. |
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Typha
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Post by Typha on Oct 20, 2019 17:51:33 GMT -6
If it is retroactive then yah that is no good. Though the situation he got banned from was after the rule was made I believe. So I mean I don't know why we're talking of past issues when it should be the one thing that really all that needed to ban him for that time being. Considering that joke was quite inappropriate.
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Brok Gorlick
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Post by Brok Gorlick on Oct 20, 2019 18:01:48 GMT -6
If it is retroactive then yah that is no good. Though the situation he got banned from was after the rule was made I believe. So I mean I don't know why we're talking of past issues when it should be the one thing that really all that needed to ban him for that time being. Considering that joke was quite inappropriate.The The ruling in response to what is ok to joke about came out in response to what Yakone/Gabu said as he said it yesterday and the ruling was stated 3 hours ago |
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Post by Prince Kabe on Oct 20, 2019 18:26:42 GMT -6
The 'ruling' on what is okay to joke about was more of an elaboration. Those sorts of things being unacceptable to joke about in a public PG-13 discord server populated by children and adults alike and where all members deserve to feel comfortable, should be common sense. He was given the most minimum of punishments as this was both his first offense under the new system. This was not retroactive punishment, he was punished after the new system was created. The purpose of giving someone a verbal warning is to make sure they know better - for Thaw, there would have been no purpose to this as we have already had several discussions with him about his behavior. There was nothing new for us to present to him about it at the time - he was very much aware that those sorts of personal jokes were not okay to be made with people he was unsure about it.
So instead, after a member who had been made uncomfortable by a joking accusation came to us for help, we made a quick decision about his behavior. We feel this was the right thing to do, and we as staff are within our rights to do so.
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Post by Saizomaru on Oct 20, 2019 18:27:35 GMT -6
If it is retroactive then yah that is no good. Though the situation he got banned from was after the rule was made I believe. So I mean I don't know why we're talking of past issues when it should be the one thing that really all that needed to ban him for that time being. Considering that joke was quite inappropriate. I think the whole "retroactive" thing was more thing that happened to me than to Thaw. But, no, I don't think retroactive warnings should be a thing. If that was the case, half the Discord would be banned just for messing with Thaw for God knows how long. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2019 18:44:08 GMT -6
Perhaps we should ban Nashua too for the time she joked about me having depression and it being the cause of my failure to get on top in WoD.
(I do actually have depression and that did hurt my feelings but I didn't say anything because Nashua probably didn't know)
Or perhaps the staff could admit the procedure employed here has not been fair.
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Queen Kayen
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Post by Queen Kayen on Oct 20, 2019 18:50:55 GMT -6
If it is retroactive then yah that is no good. Though the situation he got banned from was after the rule was made I believe. So I mean I don't know why we're talking of past issues when it should be the one thing that really all that needed to ban him for that time being. Considering that joke was quite inappropriate.The The ruling in response to what is ok to joke about came out in response to what Yakone/Gabu said as he said it yesterday and the ruling was stated 3 hours ago The announcement was not a new rule it was making it clear that that behavior is not acceptable. We've had rules against such stuff for as long as the site and discord have existed. The staff have been relatively lax on enforcement in general until recently but even then a comment like that likely would have gotten a warning (Oboe recieved similar for a less tasteless comments) The new warning system was in place BEFORE Thaw made his comment, there is no 'retroactive' action being taken. |
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Post by General Kraktus on Oct 20, 2019 18:52:58 GMT -6
I mean if she knew and then did that yah she should but if she didn't and you told her after I'm sure she'd of apologized. I think the difference in that situation to this one is that he making a joke of someone abusing their significant other. I am unsure how that can ever be funny. Anyway this stuff about discord banning is def gonna be something will take some time to iron out where the line is drawn. I think in this case the line was drawn in the right spot but I am sure as a community we can all figure out what should not be said and what can be said. We want to create a community people can feel welcome while keeping everyone happy. I am sure that things will be worked out soon enough.
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Brok Gorlick
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Post by Brok Gorlick on Oct 20, 2019 18:53:44 GMT -6
Prefacing this post by saying that I obviously am not defending domestic abuse and am just concerned about the way the rules surrounding the incident are being applied. The 'ruling' on what is okay to joke about was more of an elaboration. Those sorts of things being unacceptable to joke about in a public PG-13 discord server populated by children and adults alike and where all members deserve to feel comfortable, should be common sense. To be perfectly blunt, this doesn't really make sense to me. So in addition to the rules that are posted on the discord, can any offense not listed also be punished, simply because it is believed by the mods to be common sense? If one of the mods wake up one day and think that not joking about, for example, anti-vaxxers is "common sense" and it is not listed in the rules, are they suddenly free game to be punished? Yakone may have been warned previously about this. Dingo and Ed were most likely also uncomfortable with what he said, and justifiably so. This isnt the issue here. The issue is that Yakone was directly banned at least nominally based upon the rules of a new system that was implemented after he made said remarks. The discord strike system is supposed to increase transparency of the staff process, not be a discord version of the warning board where only the end result is seen after a bunch of events in PMs. He was given the most minimum of punishments as this was both his first offense under the new system. This was not retroactive punishment, he was punished after the new system was created. He was given the most minimum of punishments as this was both his first offense under the new system. This was not retroactive punishment, he was punished after the new system was created. The purpose of giving someone a verbal warning is to make sure they know better - for Thaw, there would have been no purpose to this as we have already had several discussions with him about his behavior. There was nothing new for us to present to him about it at the time - he was very much aware that those sorts of personal jokes were not okay to be made with people he was unsure about it. So instead, after a member who had been made uncomfortable by a joking accusation came to us for help, we made a quick decision about his behavior. We feel this was the right thing to do, and we as staff are within our rights to do so. Dont really disagree with this, so ignoring it as it is not what I am trying to address |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2019 18:55:36 GMT -6
What he said was not explicitly an offence before that if you actually read the wording of the rules. It's a subjective matter and it shouldn't have been ruled on in this way.
"You are expected to express yourself in a civil and level-headed manner during discussion or debate, therefore insulting fellow members or staff is forbidden, as is any kind of discrimination, overly aggressive behaviour or general actions which are not deemed by staff to be polite and proper during your daily discourse. "
In context Socks clearly thought he was making a harmless joke and while it turned out not to be so harmless, this has been thoroughly mis-handled.
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Post by Prince Kabe on Oct 20, 2019 19:03:37 GMT -6
We didn't give him the ban because of previous actions, we gave him the ban because of the action we banned him for. Any suggestion to the contrary is false.
Also, I don't find your arguments that common sense shouldn't be justification for something being fit to punish or warn against to be meaningful. Domestic abuse is horrible and painful for all involved. It is not something to be taking lightly when talking to strangers. Joke about what you want in private, but don't bring it - targeted no less - to public forum where anyone can see it. Additionally in regards to Aizu's commentary, insulting fellow members or staff would definitely apply in my opinion. Accusing someone of abuse as a joke is very insulting.
We didn't do anything wrong in this process, in my opinion. We gave a minimal punishment for a rude, insensitive remark targeting two members of the forum, made in poor taste. We were transparent about exactly how we came to that conclusion - Ed gave a warning in defense of a member, regardless of his connection to them, and posted it. Staff all agreed with the ruling. Thaw agreed with the ruling, after explanation of why it was given. I don't understand why this is an issue to you - are you worried that you may be punished for targeting people with similar jokes?
We're not out here to target members for making jokes in general, we're just finally enforcing rules that should have been enforced for a long time.
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Post by Kuma on Oct 20, 2019 19:20:18 GMT -6
snip > "The issue is that Yakone was directly banned at least nominally based upon the rules of a new system that was implemented after he made said remarks." This is factually incorrect. The new system was put in before he made the comments when the announcement was made in the discord and the "discord-strikes" channel was created. The "new rule" which isn't so much a new rule from my understanding and just fully implementing and official warning system specifically for the discord, was added Friday. Yakone's issue happened more than 24 hours later so it wasn't retroactive. I was online in the discord when the channel went up and I was online during the thing Yakone said. This seems fairly clear cut to me and it's setting a precedent with a fairly trivial and minor warning as Yakone is already in the discord chatting this very moment, so it isn't as if he was removed from it or the site. You seem to be upset based off of either false information or a misunderstanding of it, I'm not sure which, but your statements are factually incorrect. |
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Post by Brok Gorlick on Oct 20, 2019 19:29:41 GMT -6
After looking at it again I realized I made a mistake. I misread the exact time stamp Yakone said what he said and I thought it was early Friday before the system was implemented, not after. I was just concerned because it looked to me like it was being enforced retroactively. I apologize for the confusion, this was my mistake.
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